Ambitious Women Are NOT the Problem with Stefanie O'Connell

0:00foreign0:07[Music]0:18welcome to the your next Move podcast y'all today this is a conversation I've0:24been wanting to have for a minute and I have Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez with us today she's the host of real0:30Magazine's money confidential podcast a journalist author and financial expert you're a Powerhouse like point-blank0:38period that is very kind of you to say especially sitting in your presence no not at all not at all and we first met0:46back and I looked it up it was like 2019 I think 2018 2019 at an event for Bola secundi founder of clever girl Finance0:53shout out that was I think first book yeah now she's on book four so shout out to Bola for helping us make great connections and one of the things I love1:01the most about following you online is you talking about being an ambitious woman1:06and being Unapologetic about going for what we want um no matter what else is happening in1:12the world but before we jump into the content today I want you to introduce yourself the way you'd like to be known and make sure you share your receipts1:19let people know who you are yeah so as you mentioned my name is Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez I host a show called1:25money confidential all about talking about these very uncomfortable things that how money shows up on our in our1:32lives and the reality of how it touches everything from where we live to how we1:38interact in relationships to our careers and I also talk about more broadly what1:44does it mean to want to build wealth to want to lead to want to have power to have a lot of ambition and to do it1:52as someone who isn't you know straight white CIS heterosexual male yeah right1:58uh and for that experience to be more2:04embraced and accept it regardless of your identity because it's actually more complicated than just asking for more a2:12hundred percent so I want to start with the quote that's at the top of your website women's ambition isn't the2:18problem the problem is what our culture does to ambitious women whenever I read2:24your content I immediately feel like empowered I feel excited about making decisions in my own best self-interest2:30and about going for what I want but I also feel angry that like we need this content to empower us to do these things2:36because the reality is that it is not widely accepted what led you to focus your career on the experience of2:42ambitious women and finances well like you probably I grew up in the era of girl power right like 1990s right tell2:51you what I want what I really really want yeah right yeah and it was all like the girl powered t-shirts and stickers2:57and take your daughter to work day right yes really Peak 90s yeah and the whole3:02idea was that you know we're gonna get to equality by empowering the Next3:08Generation yes now here we are I'm in my mid-30s I'm looking around and3:16the numbers of women in leadership in in political office as CEOs really has not3:22changed since we were those take your daughter to work day girls and in reporting on money and work I just was3:30looking at this data like what's going on here because this idea of girl power clearly isn't working and I would say3:37that girl power turned into the girl boss era right as we were starting to3:42get into our careers into our early 20s it was all the lean in culture just ask3:48culture speak up and you shall receive and you know I'm I am Pro speaking up3:54and asking for what you want but what I challenge is the idea that it it is that3:59simple because we are asking we are leaning in we are speaking up but when4:07we do because we're doing so in these systems that have been control old by4:13historically white male cisgender and patriarchal structures when we do we get4:19backlash we Face penalties people chastise us for doing the very things4:25that are supposed to quote unquote lead to our success and that is an idea that4:31I think we're overlooking and I think that's at the heart of why we haven't4:36seen the numbers really shift in terms of representation in terms of power and4:41not just on gender Equity across all measures of equity I just happen to focus mostly on women no I love that I4:47think one of the biggest misconceptions is what you talked about it's like the reasons why we desire more in the4:53workplace especially when we're talking about the financial compensation part I think on Bloomberg and on your podcast you told a story about a 26 year old5:01woman in Tech asking for a 20 ish increase in her salary when she got offered a new position and the offer was5:09rescinded yeah and she was degraded by her lawyer for asking for more and I5:15think so many times when we talk about salary negotiation we say like no is the worst that can happen yeah it is it is5:21rare and in some cases illegal for folks to do that so let's just say that like that that can be illegal in some situations why do you think women are5:28being punished for asking for more our perceptions of who should be in a5:33position of authority who should be in a position of power who should be in a position of higher rank and Status5:39whether explicitly or not is still shaped by these historical models of5:45what leadership looks like and you won't hear people explicitly say you know I only think straight white guys should be5:51in power of course but the way it shows up is when you're a woman a person of5:58color someone who identifies as you know a gay or bisexual and you're then6:04seeking to gain status and Power in historically white male straight dominated role then it creates these6:11feelings of you know you're not the archetype of who a leader is you should6:17know your place right and again nobody's ever gonna say well some people are gonna say this at least on Twitter yeah6:24but you know generally speaking in in a corporate culture people aren't explicitly stating these things but the6:30way it then comes out is undermining you or uh degrading you or chastising you6:37for even asking it as you mentioned this woman had her job offer withdrawn when she attempted to negotiate and I have6:44since spoken to almost 100 women who have similar stories you know and and to6:50your point I don't think this is the majority of cases but I think acknowledging that it happens is6:57important because what happens is when we say the worst they can say is no and7:03then somebody asks for more and not only doesn't get what they ask for but is7:09undermined is discounted it from future promotional opportunities faces backlash7:15backlash like having a job offer withdrawn is that they internalize it as something that is wrong with them7:20exactly they think oh it must just be me that's the problem because if the worst7:25they can say is no and they're actually taking away my job offer and making me feel like I'm not committed to my work7:31or that I'm not qualified then I am the problem instead of recognizing that that7:37is actually a sign of something that is really critically wrong with the culture of the workplace and that company in7:43that organization so I think really talking about these experiences is not about discouraging people not at all7:49it's really about just acknowledging the full spectrum of possible responses and7:55to be aware that these biases still exist even when we'd like to believe that they don't so is there a safer way8:02that we should be asking for more the best way to do this is to try to8:08identify those workplaces and those organizations where your ambition is8:13going to be championed and supported to begin with and this is difficult right it is not very clear until you're in it8:22what that actual workplace culture is like because you go to the website and it says their diversity equity and8:28inclusion statement right yeah and they have the beautiful photos with all this representation but then go on their8:35LinkedIn or go to their our team page and see who's actually working there is it all these you know white male Harvard8:42mbas yeah are those the only people in power are they the only ones represented in roles that are other than entry level8:49roles because that's going to tell you a lot more about who gets to advance in8:54that organization than just some statement or photo on the website so I9:00think it's about doing that research as early as possible in the interview process and in the job search process to9:06say you know is this an environment where I'm going to be championed and supported or or is it not and again like9:14it's hard to get that information you can also try to talk to people who've worked there before read reviews of the9:20company online you know all these standard best practices but I think that's the most important thing is getting out ahead of it now there are9:27some negotiation strategies that have been shown you know to to be more uh9:32quote unquote feminine and thus like don't trigger the backlash that you9:37might get by just being assertive right so if you frame your negotiation by the9:44net benefit to the organization and to the company instead of what it does for9:49you of course you know that is a negotiation best practice but I would say even more so right so it's not just9:56about oh I want this it's I think the organization could benefit from this and10:04this is how I think it would be best reflected in my compensation and my role here and how I can contribute to serve10:11everybody else right it's it's kind of these things that it's true when you're talking to an employer it's always about10:17what you're doing for them exactly but especially if you're historically marginalized person it's even more so10:25because seeking your own self-interest it from the perspective of the traditional workplace is like a total10:32No-No of course of course I think we've heard when you're negotiating your salary simple things like oh well you10:39know the cost of living in New York is really high so that's why I need to make an extra 20K a year like we already know what we should know that those are10:45things we should not be saying right we should be reiterating what our skills are reiterating like the value that10:50we're bringing but I think taking it that extra step forward of like this is going to help your company and this is why I think there's a part of me that's10:57like wildly angry that's like do we really need to like hold your hand through this process to make you know that like I'm a great person to work11:04here but at the same time it's like in the end like the benefit will be yours exactly you'll get the salary so if we11:09need to change our words a little bit to make it work I think that is is amazing and I think that um I'm total in11:15agreement with The Insider information like we have to have Insider information before applying to these companies whether you're getting it from Glassdoor11:22from LinkedIn from doing your own research but if you could talk to someone yes to get the behind the scenes11:27information I know not everyone can do that for every company but that's where you really know what11:34your trajectory will look like and asking great interview questions I think there's some great questions you can11:39think about asking to really push to understand the culture to understand the people who you're working with what is their trajectory been even knowing I11:45know when I was interviewing Corporate America it's like well how many people of color did I see who actually interviewed me were they interns what11:52level were they exactly like what was their level of influence and power who were in the final stages like you can11:58pay attention and look to some of these things like is this workplace going to be a good place for me do you have a favorite interview12:03question to ask them ow putting me on the spot I love this sorry no no no no no my favorite12:10interview question I really like to understand people's trajectory about what are the biggest challenges they12:17face in their role um I ask a lot about communication between people and what it takes to get12:23decisions made I love it I like to understand where is the power in the organization so I asked12:29a lot of questions around that um to understand what the hierarchy structure is like who's important what do they value what do they not value and12:36if you ask someone the question like oh what does this company value they're really probably not going to give you a good answer exactly you get the12:41corporate Affairs answer that's on the website what PR put together you want the real deal like how how do decisions12:48get made here yeah what do you how are promotions decided what is your performance appraisal process look like12:54like have you done a pay Equity study at your organization yes those are the questions that I like to ask like12:59outside of like we know many companies now have ergs um we we know that they have brought in13:05Consultants to work in a diversity Equity inclusion and belonging but what are the actions and changes that have been made I love all of this yes so13:12don't bombard them too much now but you know I pick a few and I pepper who needs who needs to get this question so I want13:19to shift gears and kind of talk um a little bit about the pandemic um over the past 20 years women have13:24struggled to make significant progress in terms of gender equity period I think I think we know that and13:30I think the division of care gig everything household labor all of those things are an issue but the pandemic13:36made it so much worse I think these are studies that it'll be very interesting13:42to see like what in five years and ten years what was the impact of women in the workforce what do you think13:49the short and long-term consequences of the pandemic will be for women in the workplace [Music]13:55so the pandemic really just brought everything to the surface it took everything that was underlying that we14:02were like pretending we were past and just turned up the dial so we couldn't14:07ignore it right and you mentioned caregiving responsibilities unpaid labor14:13the kinds of Industries where women are more represented these are the places14:18that had the biggest hits during the pandemic right you had people who had to14:24decide you know I I have to homeschool my children they're home all day if14:30somebody's hours are getting cut or someone has to scale back who's it going to be well who makes more in this14:36relationship unfortunately we still have women being paid less than men unfortunately when it comes to14:43caregiving responsibilities you know women already have the majority of it so if if you have a father who doesn't even14:49know you know what the the school login information is right and you they're14:56supposed to be on the zoom right now and like oh never mind I'll just take care of it right it's so easy to fall into15:01that pattern and I think these are the patterns that came up during the pandemic and they came up before but it15:08was just like all turned up to 11. and in that context you had people who were15:14in untenable situations you know mothers dropping out of the workforce in Mass15:20women in general scaling back their hours to accommodate for if not child15:25care than elder care right these are the the parts of the conversation are around15:31equity and especially around pay Equity I think it's a missing piece of the conversation you don't get to pay Equity15:39until you talk about all of this extra responsibility of emotional labor mental15:45load unpaid household labor caregiving right if you have somebody who's taking15:50on the vast majority of those unpaid responsibilities there are not an enough hours in the day that they can then15:57commit to their paid labor so I think if we think about everything that it takes16:03to run a household that we all do and the cost it would take to Outsource those things right16:09what does it look like if we what would it look like actually if if you just16:15outsourced all of those responsibilities right what time would that enable what16:20would that open up what opportunity would that open up and I'm not saying people should do this I just say it as a16:25thought exercise because I think until we see what the real cost of that labor16:30is both in terms of what it would cost us to pay someone else to do it and the opportunity cost of when we do that on16:37paid labor ourselves what it keeps us from doing paid labor-wise we can't really realize the full extent of that16:43and I think the way this compounds is it's not just that okay I have to scale back and work fewer hours to accommodate16:49these responsibilities well now I might not be working full-time which means maybe I don't have access to health benefits anymore and I have to pay for16:56them out of pocket or maybe and now I'm not getting the 401K match for my employer or if I had to work fewer hours17:02but I'm still working full-time well I'm not making as much money let's say and then that also affects you know my17:08Social Security my foreign 1K and these are the ways that these uh feeling like17:13seemingly small adjustments like an extra couple hours a day in caregiving can compound into millions of dollars in17:21differences in wealth over the course of a lifetime and this is how we get not just pay gaps but enormous wealth gaps17:27period I feel like I want to clap sad news yes but but we want to be aware17:34of it right I think how you articulated it I think we think when we think about gender equality and we think about pay17:40gaps we know very clearly that when we think about women in the workplace like they're getting paid so much less and17:46how that compounds but we don't think about it on the other side of when time is taken away yes17:53like we're thinking about it like okay Apples to Apples like two people are working and these are the differences but then how much different it's even18:00worse because then you're literally getting nothing yeah when you're not there you're at least getting a little something before but now we've come out18:06of the workplace to come back home and then how will you re-enter the workforce what happens then exactly which is a18:13whole other thing it is so much harder whether you're re-entering the workforce for some people maybe it's quickly like18:18you gave birth as a woman or maybe you stayed home with your children for two years five years 10 years 15 years what18:26happens then yeah all of these things compound and make things so much more difficult I think the way we talk about18:33money a lot of the times we talk about it like it's in a vacuum like your personal finances are this totally18:38separate part and you're completely operating in the best circumstances uh18:44completely rational no accidents ever happened to you no no unexpected surprises no pandemic certainly not18:52right but what we need to do when we have these conversations about work and money is like acknowledge the real18:58reality that they exist within the context of the rest of our lives because when we don't then we're overlooking19:04these care responsibilities the time commitments that we have and that's19:10where we're seeing the the inequities really really hurt people one of the19:16most interesting studies that I found was not just about you know how pay Equity differs across gender and then19:22compounds across different racial lines and gender lines but then when you also take into account the way pay Equity19:30plays out uh not just over the course of like equal pay for equal work that's where these like 79 cents or 8219:36statistics come to them but if you play out over the course of several years19:41because then you get to see something called Labor Force participation and that accounts for how much time somebody19:50can commit to paid labor or working the same hours as somebody else and that's19:58where you see these real care commitments come into play when you take into account the amount of time somebody20:05can actually commit to working year-round full-time the pay Gap just20:11blows up it is enormous and I think sometimes when we talk about like20:17comparing Apples to Apples we're really missing the broader context that I'm talking about 100 gosh so I want to20:24shift gears just a little bit because I feel like when I knew I wanted to join the podcast you had I think it was an20:31Instagram story because I wanted to try and find out like it must have been a story that I saw I think as we talk about women in the workplace as we talk20:38about just Society in general so much of success as a woman people put20:44on having successful Partnerships successful marriage and there is this notion that20:51the men in our lives can't help us do anything right I think you shared I think it was this there's so many of20:57these memes that come out in little stories of whether you're instructing your husband I'm like okay oh my gosh when you take your pants off this is a21:04hamper and you take the pants off like you unzip them unbutton and oh my gosh they go in the hamper and the lid goes21:10on they're not on the floor like do we understand right or people who say like oh like well my husband's babysitting my21:16children like no he's actually being a father he's not right not babysitting um and I21:21think you brought up a conversation on that knowing this um I feel like the real conversation is21:27about women being empowered to ask or require what they actually desire what they need to support them whether21:32they're single they're dating they're married in Partnership and you've been very transparent about your own views on21:37this I'd love for you to share how you've adopted like a different set of rules for yourself um21:43yeah there's so much in Partnership that is tricky yes right and if you're in a21:50heterosexual partnership what happens is again these kind of assumed gender roles21:55right the assumed role of Breadwinner male uh stereotypical making decisions22:03high level and assumed role of female caretaker and not just caretaker of22:11children but caretaker of the entire household life right as you mentioned like here's how to unzip your pants22:18here's how to fold them right there's so many right and it goes across all Races22:23as well yeah it is indiscriminate about the perception we have of in heterosexual sexual relationships what22:29men can and cannot do yeah and we basically accepted we all talk about how like okay well yeah my husband can't do that oh my can't either girl like this22:36is just what it is right can't it's like they're children yes they're like oh I have two children when actually a third22:41the third is the husband it's like why do we do this right and and then there's this pry you'll see this especially like22:48on on male hosted podcasts they'll be like oh my wife's a superhero right it's it's like she does all of this and and22:55it's presented in this flattering light that she's doing all this caretaking work but really it's an enormous23:01responsibility and it becomes a burden when it becomes to the point that like23:06you're not capable of doing anything for yourself and you have to be told it because then the then your partner is23:13carrying the mental load for you and the emotional load and the cognitive load keeping a track in their brain of23:18everything that needs to be done not just for themselves but for you and for everybody else in the household and so I23:24think having a division of labor within a household is fine I think what's problematic is when so much is put on a23:33single person or when it becomes so divided that women often find themselves23:41in the situation where they're so burdened by everything like in the household that needs to be done task23:47wise that they are they just have no cognitive space left to engage in things23:53that really really matter like investing right like where the money is and this23:59is something you see happen a lot uh a lot of the people who find me are in24:04their 50s and 60s either widowed or divorced and they've never been involved24:11in the financial decision making because they were responsible for absolutely everything else in the entire household24:18right and the reason for that is not only were they less likely to make the24:24majority of the money um and so maybe didn't feel entitled to having say over where the money goes and24:30how it's managed but also you know the the status work of managing money it it24:38has a net payoff like you get to see it the status work of picking up all of the24:43toys and laundry and clothes and dishes and it's very tedious it's it's not high24:49reward right and it's constant and unfortunately the way we see these tasks24:54break down by gender really has women still shouldering that burden and it leaves them no space to get into those25:01High reward tasks like managing money seeing wealth grow and so when people25:06are like well women aren't engaged with their money I'm like well again we got to look at the context here right what25:13is it what needs to happen in Partnership to give women the space to25:18have some mental bandwidth to think longer term to think in front of the25:24another meal another stack of dirty dishes another daycare pickup and so25:29what I challenge everybody to do is to take a look at the way household labor25:34is divided you know men do unpaid tasks at home too but it generally is very stereotypical like yard work you know25:41right yeah and those are things that don't happen three times a day right like you're not cleaning the gutters25:47three times a day it's like twice a year right at best exactly and so we really25:53need to kind of do an audit of you know time again we're coming back to this idea of time where does the25:59responsibility get divided in the household and what is it keeping us from doing and then also asking each other26:06you know where can we check in with each other more because if you're the one making all of the financial decisions26:14for example I keep coming back to money because that's my thing yes and it's important26:19um what happens if something happens to you I don't know where the money is if I26:24don't know the order of operations of how the bills get paid and how things get invested you know that is a huge26:31risk to be totally opted out of so this isn't just about logistics this is about the health of the household I love that26:39so I know as we're kind of starting to come to a close I feel like there's so many things I want to ask us to hear your opinion on them but I'd love for sh26:46for you to share your advice on two topics so two questions on ambition and wealth building what do you wish all26:52women knew about ambition um I would tell women that the best advice27:00I can give to ambitious women is to ignore most advice for ambitious women I love that27:07what I mean by that is almost every woman I speak to is already doing all of27:13the best practices right they are speaking up they are getting mentorship27:18they are doing all of the right things and I think at this point in the27:24conversation we've really reached the limits of what they can do differently yes and it's time to start holding the27:31organizations and culture and workplaces that penalize them no matter what they do accountable because what happens is27:37when we get stuck in this cycle of like reevaluating what I'm wearing or how my hair is done or how my voice is coming27:44across right then we're just kind of compounding the thing as though we alone27:49can solve for all of these systemic biases right but the reality is it is27:56not us anymore that's the issue you know yeah we're always I'm not saying we're not trying and doing our best but most28:03of the people I speak to are already doing that they are maxed out on optimizing themselves we need to now28:09optimize these workplaces to be more Equitable and allow us to advance within them and now you know as somebody who's28:16gotten a lot of power it's my responsibility to do that for other people so I challenge us as we see our28:23own successes to bring others up with us yes and on the other side of things your28:28other favorite topic outside of ambitious women what do you wish all women knew about Building Wealth28:34um you don't have a confidence problem I know everybody thinks that they you know28:41they're just like I just like too timid to invest you know I I just don't know what I'm doing okay first of all it's28:48not like men are any better in fact they are worse investors they perform worse over time especially yes in the last two28:55years yes right you if you look at the statistics of how women invest their29:01their performance is better when they do invest so I want to assure everybody29:06that they are fully capable and the best way to start is to do it and learn along29:13the way instead of thinking you have to have all the information to even begin right this is pretty classic but I also29:19think this idea of all the noise you hear about investing whether it's CNBC29:25or whether it's the Bitcoin Bros or whether it's the real estate people you29:31know like do what works for you right and learn along the way and don't let29:36their noisiness make them think they make you think that they know something29:42that you don't know or that you are not capable of because the truth is you will likely outperform them according to the29:48data every time you're done talking I feel like I'm So Into what you're saying I just like I was like oh hold on29:54actually let me come back you've shared so much amazing information with us today and I think30:00one of the biggest pieces that I want to reiterate is that as a woman who is listening to this30:05podcast who is most likely already an ambitious woman I love that you put not30:11the onus on us continuing to advocate for ourselves and speak up but how can we pull up other women behind us30:18and how can we work on the corporate level on the higher level of the organization to change the system30:25because if we're doing the work it's not that we need to run ourselves working and do more outside of like yes we can30:31pull up more people behind us but the organizations that culture has to change so if we completely switch gears you've30:38given us so much how can we give to you what is your next move what are you working on oh wow I'm so unprepared for30:45this question I'm always working on things but I think30:51you know mostly I I'm really into exploring more of these ideas and uh one30:57of the things that's fascinated me most over the course of reporting a lot of This research is people's stories I have31:03been interviewing as you mentioned the woman I spoke to who negotiated her job offer and had a her offer rescinded for31:10doing so I want to really understand everything we see in the data how is this showing up in people's lives and so31:18I've been interviewing people I'm sharing that on social media at Stephanie O'Connell if you look for me31:23Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez you'll find me and I think most importantly you'll find these stories and I I really31:30hope that if you've been through something like this you come check it out because the thing I hear from people31:36is like I thought it was just me yes and to know that they're not alone it's the healing process that needs to happen31:42before you can build back up and go get that next thing I love it so we are31:47going to link all of your information your Instagram LinkedIn your website your blog which I was I spent a good31:53time reading preparing for this podcast today which I love so thank you for being with us today we so appreciate it31:59thank you you're very welcome and y'all may your next move be your very best move have a great day32:07[Music]

Ambitious Women Are NOT the Problem with Stefanie O'Connell

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